How do I reach you?
The question going through my mind the last few days: how do I reach you? - with "you" referring to people where there is a major disagreement.
That question has been coming into my mind for years and years, over and over.
Churchill - 10 years of warning people about Hitler, 10 years of being ignored.
The list of examples goes on and on. But I'm thinking of me - some of what I've been trying to reach people with, and what some others have been trying to reach people with.
The danger Islam poses to the West.
The encroachments Islam has made and is continuing to make.
Hello, is anyone there? Who's listening?
Often it doesn't make sense to us. But we're faced with the reality that it can be incredibly difficult getting many nice people, caring people - especially those who are rigidly politically correct - to see what is happening. Or they may be "turn the other cheek" Christians.
Getting heard. How do we do it? What works?
It's a vital question for every person - how do we reach, for instance, those who don't consider Islam a threat? How do we reach those who consider the situation hopeless (the message I've recently gotten from two people from different continents)? How do we reach those who consider us out of touch with reality, Islamophobes, irrational haters, and so on?
How to reach people - I'm trying to figure that out. I've been trying to figure that out for ages. It was a vital question for me in my teaching.
How do I talk with you if there's a major difference in perception without your rapidly dismissing me, not listening? - whether the difference has to do with:
understanding of Islam,
a woman's right to choose abortion,
and on and on.
I wish I had the answer.
I've been trying over and over - for years.
Well, I asked that question. And soon has a lot of answers. See below.
November 13, 2012
previous SECOND SET OF SUGGESTIONS next entry
PS. By the way, my own stand re right and wrong - whatever the issue - is, in a nutshell: liberty until harm. And then also weighing priorities (which is the greater liberty to be defended, the greater harm to be avoided).
PPS. CitizenWarrior, by the way, is a fabulous resource for people troubled by what is happening with Islam in the West, who want simple clear short answers, who want to speak to others, and may also be looking for more information on the Muslim religion, on Islam as religion and political force:
- Tools For Our Educational Mission
- Answers to Objections When You Talk About Islam
- Mutual Respect
- How to Resist Islamic Encroachment and Still Be Happy
- What Non-Muslims Can Do About Islam
- Six Suicidal Assumptions about Islam
I also have a list of resources. But making a list isn't enough to get one heard.
COMMENTS - SUGGESTIONS
How do you reach people? Focus on the hunan rights issues of Islam and sharia, what the punishment is for leaving Islam, punishment for homosexuality, wife beating being permissible, female genital mutilation. When I bring up the Koranic violence, ignorants use the old "yep there is violence in the bible too". It's a tricky sell but I find these points and consistency are starting to work :) keep up the good work.
James Douglas, Australia, November 14, 2012
I think you should read our book:
Getting Through: How to Talk to Non-Muslims About the Disturbing Nature of Islam
That's what it's all about, and I believe it is the most important issue in the counterjihad movement -- the difficulty of doing this task well -- and I am REALLY glad you are using your fecund mind to explore it. I can't wait to read what you've come up with!
CitizenWarrior, United States, November 14, 2012
The thing that burns me is Islam, whether the people are fanatics or not. I was born in an Arab country and had many Muslim neighbors. Except for one family that saved us from a crowd, I don't trust anyone of them.
I have a difficult problem talking to these so-called Leftists / Liberals as they pooh pooh all talk about Islam as "hate-mongering." I suppose they will wait until it is too late and they just have to eat their words
No matter what they see happening in Syria; Egypt; Libya, Iraq; Iran, etc... they don't fathom the danger of how many Christian churches are being burnt and people are told to either convert, leave or be killed....
I had to escape from my country of birth at the age of 17 as I couldn't take it any longer, being a Dhimmi (second class citizen).
Steve Acre, Canada, November 14, 2012
You have reached me. I was turned on to the Islamist threat sometime after 9/11. For the life of me I can't remember exactly when but think it started with a news video released after 9/11 of Osama Bin Laden and a snide comment he made that, translated into English, suggested that Americans were wildly running in a cowardly panic, to local Mosques to convert to Islam. That got my patriotic juices flowing. After watching the carnage unfold, live, on the morning newscasts, if I could have killed this bastard via telekinetics he'd have been instantly reduced to room temperature in his "luxurious" tent. So this was what 9/11 was all about?
"How do I reach you?" I suspect this troubles many of us, myself included but you have gone so much further than I who only read daily inputs in my Inbox from Jihad Watch, Raymond Ibrahim and Act For America and get from these to many other sites dedicated to the same end, yours included.
I think we are all, in small and large ways, struggling with the difficulty of getting the message out. In my case on a very small level, only among friends, acquaintances, neighbors and relatives. All either get their hackles up, react with skeptical indifference or erect a stiff arm, refusing to even consider the possibility sufficiently important enough to do their own research. Too remote a possibility to even consider significant enough to warrant the time and effort required to confirm. Too abhorrent perhaps to believe that a "religion of peace" could be even remotely responsible for such an act of deliberate barbarity.
And therein lies the root of the problem. Most advocates of various, non-Muslim religious sects, and let's not forget Atheists and Agnostics, find it difficult to believe a fact based narrative that alleges that orthodox Muslims, strict adherents of Islam could possibly be as cruel, bigoted, ignorant and suicidal as the facts clearly indicate. "Islam is a religion of peace" and all of the atrocities reported from around the world are the actions of just a bunch of extremists, criminals who have "hijacked a religion."
The west is further blind sided by it's own ingrained culture that inculcates religious freedom, freedom of conscience and tolerance, a culture that finds the notion of a religion's quest for global hegemony equivalent to pure fiction. It just doesn't compute.
The Muslim Brotherhood front groups operating in the United States and around the world are all expert at exploiting this and have developed very effective methods to silence or refute any and all accusations that Islam, Allah, Mohammad or the Quran represent anything but a peaceful religion tolerant of all other faiths, nationalities, races, ethnicities, etc.
This is so effective that blatant evidence to the contrary is either ignored or massaged to perpetuate the hoax. This despite the veiled and not so veiled threats of the violence that might ensue if this "intolerable bigotry" should get out of control. Violence from who? and who is so obviously guilty of committing the most violence all around the globe? seems to be the questions that are never asked or answered.
We, you, I and all those we respect and admire on our side of this issue are labeled "Islamophobes," anti-religious, racist bigots whose "hateful" speech must be made universally illegal if it in anyway is directed at Islam, Allah, Mohammad or "peaceful" Muslims.
But, honestly, I'm a closet Islamophobe. I'm not publicly confronting anyone of consequence and no one is threatening me with bodily harm or even death, threats that Spencer, Geller, Wilders, Ali, etc. must now or eventually, deal with. I take no pride in hiding behind anonymity and have no excuses you'd be interested in or sympathetic with but I wanted to let you know that I and perhaps many more folks like me have been or are being reached and are equally disturbed if not willing or able to do much more than be concerned.
I wish you well and promise to come to your website from time to time and enjoy reading your thoughts, insights and articles or information you find interesting, challenging or informative. I did so today which is what prompted this response.
Geppetto, United States, November 14, 2012
No suggestions. But I just wanted to share with you that I am struggling with some of the same issues. The group-think on both the Republican and Democrat side.
V, United States, November 14, 2012
What to do? Work with Act for America to get the textbooks changed to tell the truth about islam. You start with the youth. Bat Ye'or's book tells us how the Moslems infiltrate and brainwash the non-Moslems using their own against them... useful idiots.
California is allowing the textbooks to continue the fairy tales about islam at least for 2-3 more years and that means it will be even harder to change our youth who are getting corrupted.
Then, to 'work' on the current crop of islam's useful idiots - you won't reach everyone but you cannot stop trying. And that means approaching them in different ways - any way you can think of using/doing.
We also have one lobbyist (Saudi Arabia has about 100 lobbyists) in DC. Help us, donate and get more lobbyists! With our one lobbyist - we have seen changes in DC, but she needs help.
R_not, United States, November 14, 2012
Act for America: http://www.actforamerica.org/
Act for America Education: http://www.actforamericaeducation.com/
How to get people to see about Islam, and also about the "right to choose"?
For "the right to choose,"
tell them this:
Organizations like Boy’s Town, Girl’s Town, Covenant House and Children of the Night are overburdened with unwanted and homeless children. Yet there are still legions of such on our streets, stealing and selling their bodies to survive, ingesting any substance(s) they believe might ease their pain - without concern that death may be a consequence.
Our juvenile courts and governmental childcare agencies are overburdened with children taken from brutal and neglectful parents (in the US and Canada alike).
Emotional attachments by new caretakers invite burnout (I lasted three years), while keeping one's distance effects the child's psyche.
Wishing they’d "never been born" is common among these children. What kind of person would condemn even more innocent children to such fates? How many such children have they taken in as foster or adoptive parents? Who are they to judge?
Conrad - former latch-key kid, Guardian ad-Litem, student of Islamic doctrine,
United States, November 14, 2012
Now, how to get people to see the realities of Islam? Tell them the facts:
The fact that Muslim "experts" have been vetting - and re-writing our school texts for decades is generally unknown. We no longer know what those who came before us clearly understood.
Marco Polo: "The law which their prophet Mohamed has given to Muslims that any harm done to any one who does not accept their law and any appropriation of his goods, is no sin at all."
John Quincy Adams: "The precept of the Koran is, perpetual war against all who deny, that Mahomet is the prophet of God. The vanquished may purchase their lives, by the payment of tribute; the victorious may be appeased by a false and delusive promise of peace; and the faithful follower of the prophet may submit to the imperious necessities of defeat: but the command to propagate the Moslem creed by the sword is always obligatory, when it can be made effective. The commands of the prophet may be performed alike, by fraud, or by force."
"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy.,"
"The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.,"
"Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyzes the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world."
The aforementioned is all supported by "unchangeable, perfect, eternal, Divine" Islamic doctrine: the Koran (Allah's words as dictated by Mohammed), Sira (Mohammed’s most-trusted biography) and Hadith collections (Mohammed’s "traditions"). As Mohammed said (more than once): "Islam cannot change" (hadith Bukhari, vol. 9, book 88, no. 174, among others).
The most condensed and verifiable information to be currently found on those aspects of Islam that affect non-Muslims is the book: "Sharia Law for Non-Muslims," available through www.cspipublications.com and/or www.politicalislam.com, as are books on every aspect of Islam ("The Submission of Women and Slaves," as but one example). The latter web-site also offers extensive and fully verifiable reports and articles on related subjects and events at no cost (click onto the "Tears of Jihad" section to learn the realities of Islam’s continuing destruction). "An Oath Violated?" at
http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/2009/11/ could as easily happen in Canada as happened at Fort Hood, Texas - for the same reasons.
Conrad - former latch-key kid, Guardian ad-Litem, student of Islamic doctrine,
United States, November 14, 2012
How do we reach people? Mistaken Beliefs (or false logic) underlie the pathologies of religion, misogyny and childbeating. To dispel a Mistaken Belief requires, in therapy, a skilled facilitator and close relation with others who have dispelled theirs. Mistaken Beliefs always underlie the process of Denial and Acting Out.
I strongly urge you to look for an answer to your question in the methods used by advertisers and propagandists.
When someone abreacts to your statements about abortion, gays and women's and children's rights, their underlying pathology of hurt can be detected and responded to if, unlike me, you have the strength of character and analytical mind to dissect and detect. Having ascertained the degree of hurt they have sustained, you can mention it as a way of getting through to them. 'I can see you were very hurt by what happened to you and it has made you angry with women/ children/gay people.'
Ask them what they find most difficult about the way they were treated by their parents. It always goes back to that. No exceptions. Listen, analyze, detect and formulate an intervention designed to connect. This will form the basis of your propaganda or adverts.
There is a similar pathology underlying the left wing multiculturalist who cannot see the plain evidence before her very eyes. Ask yourself what is she actually seeing and why? She is interpreting anger, hatred, hate speech, rape, assault and religious mania as justified responses to aggression by islamophobic people like us.
I have to ask, was she unjustly treated as a child and did she defend against this injustice by taking on the views and beliefs of the aggressor, her parents.
To illustrate, look at what happens when a terrorist takes over an aircraft. The passengers, always and without exception, begin to identify with the terrorists. This is known as 'projective identification' in professional jargon. And this is what is happening with the multiculturalist dhimmi. They are frightened and their defense against the aggressive punishing parent is being triggered off just when as they sided with the parent against their siblings in childhood.
They are very badly hurt emotionally and I urge you to look at ways of reaching that hurt and offering reassurance just as you would to children in a family who have been badly abused at least emotionally.
These hurt adults need to be reminded that they are adults now, that no one is going to punish them for noticing the truth.
These healing interventions can be made via billboards, leaflets, videos, TV adverts and public speaking.
Jack Rainbow, Great Britain, November 14, 2012
How does one reach people? This is my story, about what's happened with The Infidel Task Force.
I got involved back in 2009 with the ITF on YouTube and became active. At that time what I found was many in that group were just Muslim bashers and all they wanted to do was argue with them on YouTube.
I found it useless and counter productive in what they said their goal was. So i began trying to educate people that had no idea of the dangers we faced.
The group started to fall apart and i was then accused of dismantling a 6 year long project in a year span.
Long story short I just walked away, and to be frank about it i was very relieved to not see all the horrific things i had to post. I fell back into my little safe bubble and put back on my rose colored glasses. I dove into my work taking care of a disabled guy and only got home every other week for 36 hours. That is still my work schedule. lol
Anyway, last year around December the guy Jim (Black Boot Jack), who runs the website and always shared the way i saw things on the ITF You Tube, approached me and asked me if i would take over the Facebook page. It had like 26 likes at the time.
I was very hesitant at first and said I would make no promises but would see if i could just generate some interest to the site. Well when i started adding photos to the photo gallery, ones I would manipulate by adding words. They took off like wild fire. This is when I realized pictures really are worth a thousand words.
Now I am knee deep in the cause, since so many are messaging me who are in terrible situations, and say the site has helped them and educated them.
My heart has always been to help people because I care.
This is why your site, and others you direct people tom are lifelines for people like me. I depend on all of you to help me get the message out there. My job I feel is to direct people to find the information for themselves, then carry it forward.
I am not trying to build a following because it is not about me... It is however about networking and everyone becoming One Body, a force that the governments and those who wish to annihilate our ways of life to have to deal with.
I hope to shake people and wake them up, to sound the alarm in a sense, so our future generations will be able to live in freedom and in peace!
Jim shared with me that when he opened the Facebook site, it was a huge headache! Many features we should have, we do not. For instance, from that site we can not like another page, and I cannot search at all. I can follow links but many people's sites are closed to that account for some reason.
had to get really creative on marketing strategies to help the site grow.
The main way was I used my own Facebook account to post ITF pics, that I put the website. And I linked the FB site to them and then people followed them home like as if i dropped crumbs of bread.... :)
Now we are hitting close to 1,000 Likes a month, a little slower if iI don't make new pictures. People love to make a point with a picture. There are people who would rather watch a movie than read a book!
Well thank you again, Elsa. I really appreciate all you do!
Freedom Annie, Infidel Task Force, United States, November 15, 2012
I agree, Elsa, that a good way to approach a topic in which people have strong opinions is discussion. The difficulty (as you well know) is that mainstream Islamic organizations don't permit an actual discussion in the first place. It is forbidden by their doctrine and any true discussion (dissent) is deemed hateful. That is why Islamic groups are pushing so hard to pass UN Resolution 16/18 on the prohibition of so-called hate speech.
I find it interesting is that while many groups in the U.S. (the ACLU, Southern Poverty Law Group, Freedom From Religion, etc.) work towards removing any trace of traditional Christian images from the public square (schools, federal buildings, public lands, etc.), meanwhile Islamic groups who don't play by the same rules of separation of church and state, have successfully lobbied to build Muslim prayer rooms in some public schools.
The Western sentiment to be inclusive, fair, politically correct plays right into their hands.
A quick internet search reveals that Canada faces the same problem.
I disagree on how you frame, in other blog posts, the questions on abortion and homosexual marriage, but we live in a culture that permits open discussions, be it political or theological.
J North, November
Re: what is the priority in trying to reach people. Islamic sharia law is a more pressing issue over abortion and homosexual controversies. These latter 2 controversies would not exist under sharia. Homosexuals would be hanged and woman would be stoned for having an abortion. These are only 2 of many disagreements we have with sharia.
Therefore Islam is by far the most dangerous at this time in history. I think the more we know about the Ottoman Empire and how the Turks conquered southern Europe (even on their march making it all the way to Vienna, Austria ) is basic to understanding their intentions. They have only regrouped.
This may be a great opening for discussing Islam.
I also get the Facebook for secular democracy for Iran. They have graphic pictures of what is happening there. I hate to advise using them but it did wake me up to the daily brutally. This also opens the discussion for the rights of women.
Unfortunately many in the USA are only looking out for self interests. This crosses party lines. These people don't connect the historical and factual accounts of Islam's self proclamation to rule the world under sharia law both in the past and strengthening again today.
Toni, United States, November 15, 2012
I agree that Islam is more pressing. But I have gotten a number of, for example, extremely homophobic emails from people who are anti-Islam. They do not see that gay rights are also freedom rights. So I think it's vital that we make clear what we are FOR - like I am FOR human rights, and FOR flourishing, for example, for the dance world (as in the tribute to Eva).
Elsa, Nov 15, 2012
How to reach people?
My suggestion, for what it's worth (nd this is by no means complete):
The first step to understanding how to reach someone who believes in a foreign ideology is to do a thorough and ruthless examination of your own ideology.
What are your morals?
What guidelines do you follow?
Where did those come from? They didn't just appear.
What are the resulting values?
What are the resulting laws?
What are the underlying assumptions, and references?
Does your reference run to a higher power or to yourself? If it's higher, is it secular or magical? If it's secular, what's its track record? If it's magical, what is it's track record?
Once the self assessment is complete, go on to the following questions:
What are your goals and objectives, and are they consistent with the other parties?
Are you fooling yourself? Do you really want to know the other parties' motives?
What if those motives are ugly? Will they listen to you? Do you have any common ground forming a lasting agreement?
BTW - off topic, but if this were a commercial negotiation... is it legal to collude?
What if you discover information that does not fit your own paradigm, and forces you to reevaluate your own beliefs about a situation? Or, in this case, how would you affect another's strongly held beliefs and persuade them to reform and/or adopt an alternative? Is such a reform possible?
Also, who would you ally with? What principles, allies, jobs, income, or whose babies are you willing to throw under the bus? Are you willing to live with the collateral damage?
Then, you have to ask if you have a common language? Frequently we make the mistake of thinking we know what a word means. In law, contracts, regulation, and other activities, one player will deliberately use a word knowing the other player misunderstands. These contemplations, or lack thereof, often appear when a legal authority is asked to interpret the word from the construction. And it can get hairy, and bizarre if the judge has an axe to grind, or favors a subjective, anything goes style.
Very important, sometimes a prime consideration:
Ask if are there reasons to believe the dialogue will be carried on in Good Faith. Often, that's not true. As in criminal prosecution, there are penalties for overzealous prosecutors who withhold exculpatory evidence. (Penalties that usually involve subjecting the community to another violent miscreant.) Are there any penalties, rewards, or consequences for communicating in Bad Faith? If so, are there any enforcement mechanisms for discovering the other parties intentions?
Then, you have to ask if an objective consensus can be formed for a framework of dialogue. E.G. It's possible to set limits on the concentration of uranium in yellow cake. We have no discussion because the understanding is subjective.
If you learn the other party is actively engaging in dialogue for reasons other than your reasons, what will you do about it?
When you reach the end of this exercise, maybe you'll have an answer.
Alan, November 15, 2012
This is another way to reach people.
When discussing atrocities in the news:
Point out that the perpetrators of terrorist acts are often motivated by political, ethnic, tribal, or ideological commitments. Terrorists deliberately target the innocent. A tactic which unsurprisingly serves only to move governments away from better behavior and towards totalitarian behavior.
Consider Ghandi - if he had tried his tricks on Stalin he would be another statistic.
If you can find agreement on this point, ask if the terrorist's behavior is consistent with, or inconsistent with, the thought leaders of his ideology?
Would Washington support death camps? Would Stalin support labor camps? These examples should be objective and concrete. "Who would Jesus Bomb?" is clever, but it ignores the fact that Jesus admitted he would punish pedophiles (and other child abusers) so severely, they would wish to be thrown into the sea. See Mat.18:3-6.
If the person you are talking to comes from a place where hedonism reigns, and has never heard of Alexander Solzhenitsyn (as a surrogate for a range of common knowledge of the last century's political history), I recommend that you stop while ahead - you are beyond the extent of my advice. If someone recalls the USS Liberty, but not the USS Cole, if they think Pearl Harbor was a false flag operation, but they cannot explain the "Rape of Nanking" - you are wasting time. IMHO.
If the person passes the test, and is aware and amenable:
Ask the target to consider these points:
Does the terrorist's ideology teach supremacy based on race, religion, intentions, or any measure other than merit?
In the terrorist's community, is he a "bad" person?
Does his tribe, community, nation, etc., support his actions with rewards, including money, but also celebrations or salvation?
If he refuses to participate, will he be tried and convicted? Will his relatives die?
If he participates, will he break the law? If he breaks the law, what law? Whose law?
Will the police arrest him?
Will the civil and/or religious courts convict him?
If convicted, will his punishment be similar to a first offender convicted of tax cheating? Or will he be severely punished?
If in prison, will he be hailed as a hero, and become a white martyr? Or will his family apologize to the victims and repudiate his actions?
Conclude by pointing out that criminals such as Anders Breivik are not only mentally ill, but they violated every conceivable moral, religious, guideline and value in their communities. Timothy McVeigh or Theodore Kaczynski are not lionized from any pulpit, and to my knowledge their ideology tended towards a certain political stripe, which is why they're forgotten. These evil men didn't just tick off the leadership by an untimely murder. They violated the morals, values, guidelines, and standards of the community they lived in. In contrast, Osama Bin Laden was living the life of Riley when he was assassinated.
Another contrast; In the early 00's, two Syrian boys refused a suicide mission to murder innocent Israeli's. The boys were arrested by the police, tried by Sharia court for the crime of homosexuality (they were raped first by the secret police to ensure they were guilty), and they were hanged (ages 13-14) by Assad's secret police. To be clear, they refused to be terrorists and paid with their lives.
The willfully ignorant judge other cultures by its apologies and propaganda, but they judge our civilization by its criminals. Often we have to explain away crimes committed by the mortal enemies of our civilization as though we ourselves rooted for or supported said crimes. Even when our friends and relatives literally risked their own lives fighting the criminals.
Alan, November 15, 2012
Your question about 'reaching' people is really: 'how do I change people's minds?'
Here are a couple of ideas I found:
The direct approach is the most honest one. One of the most effective arguments I heard started with the words, "I want to change your mind."
Then, from Farouk Radwan:
Vince Lombardo, Canada, November 15, 2012
12 MORE SUGGESTIONS HERE!!!
To go from this blog journal on getting heard -
or rather on how hard it is to get through,
to one on using seeming magic to get through,
To go from this diary blog on how do I get heard,
to a rap song on someone who was heard,
Getting Heard, Getting Through.
Hear me, listen to me, this is urgent.
Not easy, to get heard. Frustrating.
How do I do it? What can I do?